"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will..."
Eph. 1:4-5
The reason I am chosing to write in regards to the subject of Salvation, and rather or not one can be assured of it, is because I recently had a discussion with a good friend of mine. And I want to make my thought clear concerning the matter.
For thoses who believe in "Falling away", many of these theology holders state that we who believe in "election" and/or "Eternal Security" are presenting grace that is cheap. But I believe not. For one to state that grace is "cheap" is in denial of grace, since that thought implies that the price that was paid (the death of Christ on Clavery) was too little. For mans part, grace, has to be FREE and with no price at all, while on God's part, the price He paid must be infinite. Hence, if any man thinks his works play any part by keeping or either earning his salvation, that cheapens grace. Thus, the aftermath is cheapening the gift of salvation by human effort, and not something which is infinite, God's doing.
The "falling from grace" involves the same error as well. Because our works had nothing to do with meriting God's grace in the first place, there is nothing we can do to cause us not to no longer merit it; thus to "fall from it". Paul declares, "...if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace, otherwise work is no more work" (Rom 11:6). Salvation cannot be obtained partly by works and partly by grace. Hence, works of NOTHING to do with SALVATION.... PERIOD.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."Eph. 2:8-9
If salvation--from the penalty of breaking God's laws--cannot be earned by good deeds, then it cannot be lost by bad deeds. Our works play no part in either earning or keeping salvation.
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."Rom. 3:20
If one who confesses to be "saved" and could lose their salvation, we must assume that by their own actions, they keep themselves saved. If this is the case, if one is saved and thus enters into Heaven, they are then able to boast that their actions/deeds played a key role in their salvation. Stating that Christ saved them but they kept themselves saved. But the Scriptures stated that no man can take any credit for his salvation. First Peter chapter One, verse Five states:
"...who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time."
1 Pe. 1:5
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Eph. 2:8,9
"Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:16
Thus, we are kept not by our faith nor works, but sealed/kept by His Power. That we don't obtain our "everlasting life" through or by works, but by grace, we are His.
We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive. James 2
If one could lose their salvation:
a) Christ would have to be crucified again to save us again.
b) Christ would be giving a priceless gift to those who would inevitably lose it.
If Christ's Death and Ressurection was not enough to "keep us saved", then Christ has foolishly wasted His time. Simply put, if we could not live a good enough life to obtain salvation (enternal life), then we most certainly can not live a good enough life to keep it.
"If they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation."
Hebrews 6:6-9
The author is clearing stating by the above verses in Hebrews that if we could LOSE our salvation, Christ would have to die again. Thus if we lose our Salvation, to obtain the "free gift" again, Christ would have to die again and again.
For Jesus Himself assures us our Salvation:
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
John 10:28
So to say we can have eternal life in Christ, and then lose it, it then makes our Savior and Lord a Liar!
Read what Paul states:
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
As sad as it is, there are Children of God who will simply abuse, misuse, or rather take advantage of God's Saving Grace (which is free, not of our own doing or efforts), for the sake of entering into His Kingdom, but GREAT is the REWARD for who do GOOD in Christ, Jesus.
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." 1 Corinthians 1:4
If God predestined us from the beginning of time (Election), for one to lose one's salvation would say that God can make mistakes. If God did chose us, that would mean that He then decides to not choose us later. But Hebrews 13:8 declares our God does not change... EVER!:
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."
"Who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time." 2 Tim. 1:9
If I can't do anything to obtain salvation, can I do anything then, to lose it?
I then end in echoing this statement...
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith." 2 Timothy 4:7
This is nothing but brief thoughts on the subject of eternal security.
But I hope it made those believe not in "Election" or "Eternal Security", think more about it.
I am thankful to the Lord above that you feel that no human deserves to be discriminated based on race, religion, or gender.
However friend, I disagree on your stance on homosexual couples. You claim that anyone can see that two same sex of anything can't match up together. Your reason in stating this is because it isn't right. The problem with this is that you are looking out of the wrong eyes; yours.
You have to understand, God does not look at humans through the eyes of man or any other; but the eyes of His. If He did, we would lose out on the chance of coming to know Christ personally.
Like you--I am sure--I too hold the Bible to have ultimate authority over my days; which are so graciously given unto me.
Also, I to look towards nature to explain some things in life. You mention that same sex couples can not reproduce. Well, I am not going to fool anyone; either do I! However to base 'reproduction' for the means of 'marriage' or in fact to justify your anti-gay remarks is silly.
This is why:
It was reported in the New Zealand Gerald that two male penguins were/are devoted to one another. That they live together, they flirt together, and provided for each other. In fact they have been a couple now for ten years! And with any other loving relationship--theses male penguins even attempted to raise a family together.
So to look directly at nature as your means of stating that two of the same sex is not seen or isn't possible is a incorrect reasoning.
I'm not about to base my "pro-gay" beliefs off of two gay penguins--that would be childish to me. I want to base it from where I find all my beliefs from... the Inspired Word of God.
Regarding the Word of God as my main source for my beliefs, a lot of people respond with my "views" with "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." However there are faithful Bible readers whom state this; I am sure the majority of theses responses come from people whom never touched a Bible; let alone read one. So I am sharing this to both parties.
So let us take a look at the Bible and see what God has to truly say without any prior "made up mindset".
Gen. 2:8-14 describes the garden and the rivers which Adam is free to roam. It is a pleasant place for him. IT has every tree possible and good food (V.9). There is gold, bdellium, and onyx (vv. 11-12). However, there is one thing; one problem. Everything is not perfect. God says 'It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help fit for him.' (v.18). It is in verse 22 that Eve is finally created and introduced to the story. Eve is created for Adam. She exists to solve the problem for his solitude. He is not created for Eve. All we see is Eve is good for Adam, she is his companion. Eve is created for Adam.
I just noted previously that it is not good for man to be alone (Adam meaning simply 'human being'). God creates first of all, various animals and brings them unto Adam and then Adam gives them name (v. 19-20). Giving a name indicates superiority, one of authority--even ownership. Adam names the animals, and he also names the creature created by his own rib: 'this one shall be called woman, for this one has been taken from man.' (v. 23). Adam is seen again to have domination; this time over Eve. Also note please that he does not personally name the women "Eve". He names the creature just as: 'woman'. It is not until God's punishment that 'woman' receives the personal name "Eve" (Gen. 3:20).
Theses animals I spoken about above were given to Adam as projected partners for the man "Adam". NOT the women. The women is created after the trying of the animals.
Gen. 2:20
So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
God here tries one thing, then another--trying to find the "suitable" partner for the man; but God doesn't succeed.
God kept going until Adam found the suitable partner. It wasn't until Eve that he found joy, the one whom he; himself recognized as a partner fit for him.
See it isn't a woman Adam delights in, but rather a vision of a relation. Someone to spend his days with.. .to share his life with.
People like yourself it is meant for a man and a women to be together. But the text gives no justification that Adam states that it is 'meant' to be this way; or otherwise.
This is a story of human delight, not moral truth. It all depended on Adams' reaction to see who or what was fit for a companion. To say that this was God's intended plan for Adam is foolish. Why? Because it leaves out the fact of God attempting to find a companion for Adam by creating animals. Also, that Adam took Eve joyfully becomes redundant if God had already plan for Eve and Adam to be 'suitable partners'.
So if that was God's plan-- for Adam (to take Eve); the joyful delight in Eve would be irrelevant to the entire outcome of the story being told in Gen. 2.
Adam isn't just a man; he is THE man. He represents all men; whatever his gender that he is attracted to. Each man has to find delight in only who he sees fit. You have to see if we label this sin: one fails to find the opposite sex attractive; we would have enough to condemn not just the gay and lesbian Christian or not, but indeed folks who just do not delight in anybody in particular. No responsible 'Christian' would dar to say that those whom do not delight in the opposite sex is going against God's Will.
What comes down to it is... typically 'Christians' are following the wrong 'Adam'. It was Adam (human being) that chose, or rather found delight in Eve... not God. God kept going until Adam delighted and was pleased... and found a partner fit for him. If we follow anyone, it should be the second Adam--Jesus Christ.
I hope this help some look at things differently. A lot of times we approach the Bible with our minds made up of what God already says in the Bible without approaching it with the guidance of the Spirit of God.
I don't know if you call yourself a 'christian' I mean with the majority of the US calling themselves one, i guess you do too.lol If you aren't a 'christian' you probably know better then anyone that 'Christianity' has become, what I and a handful call today, "Spiritual Masturbation . It has overwhelming became this 'feel good belief system' that doesn't give birth to anything...especially genuine warmhearted Christ-like followers. BUT instead the aftermath is men and women who go by feelings not by faith. Men and women who go out into the world to 'sell' Christ not tell of Christ.
They are Marketers of the Truth and not Messengers of the Truth.
And this grim and tragic reality of the spiritual condition of the US has brought tears to my eyes, more importantly, God has been weeping and no one even cares. The church gets all upset and arms raise high when the US Flag leaves the church before even worrying about the Cross. They rather place their trust in Politics for "peace on Earth" then place it in the "Prince of Peace". I am tired of what I see, what I hear, and what I feel about "Christianity". And I echo another mans thought on the matter, "I have left Christianity to follow Jesus." See as 'Christians' we have for years BELIEVE in Jesus but yet never really began to FOLLOW Him. Sure we attempt to do so, and as soon as it makes us uncomfortable, or leaves us convicted we go back to a place where we were at peace with ourselves.
We seek great revivals to "reclaim our faith" we go to "Summer Camps" to refresh our faith or restablish our beliefs and why we believe in our faith. And sadly we have relied on SIGHT to provide evidence we have faith, such as miracles in our lives, and other 'acts' and 'events' like "speaking in Tongues" as the "Mark of Authenticity" as a Christian*.
So I want to end this is saying that I believe our "spiritual" condition as a Nation is weakening the clarity of our God. When you flip on your TV and you see these 'faces' of Christianity promising big houses and fancy cars for exchange for money, when you see that acceptance of bold, blunt and forward HATRED to the 'least of these', ignoring the fact that Jesus said "what you do to the least of these, you have done it to Me", it is a wake up call. When you see Christ body encouraging our little ones to be "Troopers of Truth" or "The Army of GOD" in order to "reclaim American for Christ" and not teaching the reality that the Bible teaches the opposite, that in the End Times (as they rightly BELIEVE is to be now) that GOOD will become BAD and what was once and is BAD will become GOOD, and that the Anti Christ will come, and that this world is only going to become more godless. They place fear in the hearts of children instead of Faith. They say it is important to endorse and vote for 'republican' with 'christian values' when one of their own "leaders of Christianity" has been caught in, what they call a "abnormal lifestyle.", where such are going to burn in Hell for eternity. They treat this man who was a clear as day hypocrite, kindly because he is a "man of God". What they end up doing was using him as a poster child for their 'agenda' of 'curing' and 'fixing' GLBT. (oh and it took him less then weeks to be cured and forgiven--imagine that!)
My point is that when we look at Christianity TRUTH sure does ring out loud and clear, and it isn't from the pulpits or their politics or the way in which they believe they live, but by the actions they take. What I mean is that if you want to know what they believe, watch how they live. It is easy for people on the outside to see this because they have not been blinded by half-truths, lies and fancy gibberish disguise as "truth". And the reality of our spirituality needs to end. And I don't see myself as a complainer of the church, I see myself as one part of the Body of Christ, who truly is trying to rebuild and revive the Church. It isn't the fact that what the Church is and the Truth that we speak NEEDS to change--if that was the case, I would be teaching a Gospel or presenting a "Jesus" that isn't Biblical, and Christ warns us of such. BUT I just (along side many I am sure) want to take the Church back where it belongs---on the streets, in the lives of homeless, changing the Hearts of American NOT the White House of America, being last not trying to be first, being Jesus to this world, not speaking it, living Jesus not wearing it.
We need to wake up. We need to re-read, re-think, and re-examine the Scriptures of who Jesus was in the Gospels, what the Church was in Acts and what we expect and hope for in the near future. We have been given our wake up call SLEEPERS, now we just have to get this ball rolling... on tiny act of love at a time.
Thank you for reading this. This is why I live: to proclaim, live out, speak of the goodness and precious Gospels of Christ. Some will come with me, others will go. But if God is with me, who shall or what shall I fear! If I profit the whole world, and in the process loose my own soul, what does it profit a man?! Nothing. If I say "I love GOD' and hate my brother, Jesus says the Love of God is NOT in me. When we get to the point in Christianity where we rely on money, politics and entertainment to get across the Gospels and the reason our heart beats and mouth thirsts for Christ, that is a troubling state of spirituality. We should be relying on the Christ and His Spirit to provide the source of uplifting proclaiming and living out rightly and justly. We need to wake up, or hear the alarm Christ is sending: WAKE UP MY CHURCH... SLEEPERS WAKE UP!!!
Thanks again for reading!!
MJ
*This is not to offend those who believe in such, but lets face it MANY look to this as a sign that God is near and in their hearts. That is why i mentioned it, you can't deny people do it. Speaking in tongues is for Christians what cutting is for Emos.
Walter Asked:
Assuming that you believe gay acts are sinful......it's like asking "How you can be a sinner and a Christian?"
I ANSWERED:
First off being "christian" and being "gay" isn't what alot of people live it to be. Being "Christian" has become being like Pat Robertson and being "gay" has become being Chris Crocker or a character of Queer as Folk.
Being Christian is being like Christ. When you read in the Word of God, you see that Jesus mingled with the outcast, wicked and the least among society. He wasn't in the mist of the righteous, but came for the sick folk. He gave them love and forgiveness. He didn't just speak words of loving and grace, but lived it out. And even when He rose again, His followers were known simply by living. It was once said "If you want to know what we believe, watch how we live." Being a follower of Christ isn't what a lot of people say it to be. There is something bigger and more precious then what we make "Christianity" to be. It isn't Republican, Democrat, Right or Left. We are to live our faith in our daily living. A Christian is known by their love, grace, humbleness, and forgiveness to the worst of enemies. Not by the t-shirts or bracelets they chose to display, or fancy slogans they hide behind. We are to give this world heaven. To show them Jesus. To be Jesus.
A 'gay' person is a male or female who is sexually and emotionally drawn to the member of the same-sex. Being gay isn't the night-life, meth addicts or the unsafe sexual acts with two or more same-sex members. It is simply a man or women who likes and one day falls for a same sex person, who also desires to love in word and deed, to be faithful and committed to one another, under God and witnessed by many.
Sadly both members in both labels of people sadly feed to many stereotypes associated with being gay or christian, or even both. And sadly these assumptions causes many to generalize the few who are unlike the others. The ones who serve God wholeheartedly, in an effort to be Jesus. Like me. People who are tired of what church has become and want to begin being the church.
So it is my conclusion being Christian or gay, and both is not what many define it as. We, as a people of both groups have been lead astray by the marketing and mishaps done by the larger communities. It is Pat Robertson and James Dobson, along with their methods of "loving the sinner and hating the sin" that gives The Christian the bad name. It is people who might give in to lust and unhealthy relationships (and other activities) with same sex peoples, or child molesters who claim to be 'gay' etc, that give honest and average person of GLBT, a bad name.
And with the few who don't fall into either, we are tired of complaining and what to become the church and the new picture of what it means to be gay, and a believer of Christ, a Homeless Holy Man, who walked this earth 2000 years ago so we may not be dead, but alive in Him. Not condemned but saved. Not to establish a religion but a relationship. To not see sinners, but children made in His image. To give life. To give healing. To be our God.
I just want to make note here, as I read it I am sure many could misunderstand what I am trying to say here at the end. I am not saying we are our OWN 'g-d" but what I am saying is that Christ calls us to be His hands and His feet. To be the voice for the suffering and the least of us. To speak up and out for those who are less then us, who know not what they do. To forgive as He done so for us, and to love as He first loved us on that Tree. The Bible says we are seen as perfect in the sight of God, because of what His Son did on our behalf--died for our sins. Christ says that we are His body with many parts. We each of a unique and special place within His family and body of believers, with a common purpose to live life, that is to further His Kingdom, to plant seeds for the Harvest. To share others what Jesus has done. So i no way am I saying "we are Jesus" but we are to be LITTLE Jesus. There is a verse in the Bible that states we are to be imitators of Christ--and that is including loving those who mock us, hate us and condemn us. If we only see others as Jesus sees, this world would be better off. If we only began to see that each person, regardless of race, religious belief or sexual orientation(s), was made in His likeness, we can begin to see as Christ sees. That beneath all the roughness that is apart of a man, there still lays his heart, which is need of a Savior who is madly and deeply in love with him. Let us bring Christ back into our lives. I am tired of gay "welcoming and accepting" churches and I am tired of the "church" not being the church to a dying world. It is much liken to us with a family member we just can't stand. And because of it we chose to ignore what they say, and the little love they try to show. Or maybe the friend who tries to step into our lives, but for a personal reason, we just can't STAND be near him/her. And one day they will die and we begin to think of the better ways in which we could have loved that person, or even began to open a bit, broaden ourselves into being Jesus. But as a Church we are to do that now, before Christ returns. Or are we going to keep doing what we do until Christ returns and Christ is going to hold each of accountable and say "You should have done that." And honestly, we know we should have but something in us blinded us or kept us from going through with following His Great Commission, and that is our own fleshly prejudice, hatred and bias to others who don't agree with us. We need to wake up people! Realize who we have! We have the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, the Alpha and the Omega, the God who spoke into existence the moon and the stars. We have Jesus the Son of Man who came to this earth as a human to live among us, so He may know us, eat with us, starve with us, be homeless with us, and see our pain, suffering and agony brought forth by this world and even the religious extremists. We no longer need a sacrifice to be nearer to God, we have Jesus. No longer can we excuse ourselves from not doing a task, regardless of how big it is, because we have Jesus, and through Him, ALL things are possible! We no longer can run from our pain, because God has plan in store and it is only meant to build us up. We need to be Jesus people. LET us not WAIT before it is to late! There is sooooo much more to living OUT the abundant life in which Christ calls us to live out. There is more to being a believer then going to church, eating during "fellowship" and singing my ALL IN ALL. That it is the heart we bring not the words we sing that is worthy as worship! It is God we breath to please and satisfy. So let us start by loving our neighbors as ourselves. To love as Christ loved. Forgive and forget their wrongs and cast them into the deepest oceans. Let us stop giving excuses of "I can't" and begin believing on Jesus and saying "We CAN!" The world and some religious folks have oppressed us and is having us believe we are not people, let alone believers. Don't they know who we serve? Don't they know that we stand in awe? But ya know, I could careless if they know! Because we are NOT here to please man, be they a Pastor or a President. We are here to please and to serve the LORD our God!! So in a church or out of a church, Republican or Democrat, Right or Left, Gay or Straight, if you believer yourself to be a believer on the Lord JESUS CHRIST we have one common mission and that is spread the Message of Redemption, Love and Grace to the dying world around us. Let embark on a new spiritual journey! One where Jesus is seen no merely heard. That Jesus is once again the BREAD OF LIFE, not ANOTHER way to live life. That Jesus was homeless and was tempted by God and can say "I've been there, now come. Walk with ME." Let us speak and act just as Jesus not asked but COMMANDED us to do. Let them know us by our love, compassion and endless forgiveness. Let them know we follow a Holy Son of Man, Jesus the Risen Christ, because we shine bright, not hiding our light under a basket! Let us SHINE. Let us be Jesus Christ to this world.
Will you join me?
Hannah asked:
I, like Taylor, do not have homosexual feelings or hatred, however I am also interested in how you can be gay and a Christian. Upon seeing your claim I automatically turned to the Bible to see what it had to see, though I was provided with verses of acceptance and love I found verses like the following:
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
I do not condemn you for being gay, but I do condemn the acts of homosexuality. One person offered the defense of if you cannot be gay and a Christian you can't be a sinner and be a Christian. You can be a sinner and be a Christian because the Lord covers our sins with his blood and we are continually trying to move past our sins and live in righteousness; but if we know that something is a sin and we continue to live in that sin and to follow that which makes us feel good, is not that living in perpetual sins. We should not live life expecting God to forgive us for every sin that we do and just keep doing them. We are supposed to live a life which has us trying to radically change our lives and the lives of others for and through Christ. I do not hate gays, I love them because Jesus loves them.
MY RESPONSE:
Hannah, in all respect and love, may I suggest you read what has been posted before you state those verse. You said "upon seeing your claim" I doubt that you have read it. Because if so, you would have known we too "automatically turn to the Bible" to find not just love and acceptence but the Truth that also set you free, has set us free indeed. Amen.
Also Hannah, you state the same slogan many Christians scream at the top of their lungs "Love the sinner hate the sin" but if you actually read the Gospels and studied Christ (more then you have), perhaps you would see that Christ, in word and deed, "Loved the sinner and forgave the sin." (no NOT excuse it, but forgave it. A difference)
"if we know that something is a sin and we continue to live in that sin, and to follow that which makes us feel good, is not that living in perpetual sins." That whole statement is full of assumptions and sadly false teachings in regards to being a homosexual.(which I am offended by them all)
1) We do NOT (base on Scripture) understand that homosexuality is a 'sin'. If we were 'convicted' of it as being so, a good and devoted follower of Christ (as you said) would see it and walk away from it. As Christ said "Go and sin no more.".
2) Homosexuality makes us "feel good" as much as be heterosexual makes one "feel good". One member of my home baptist church once said as being against homosexuality "You can't live by feelings, that is what being gay is all about." I said "Do you love your husband?" She obviously said "Yes." I asked her why and she said "Because I feel that inside of me." I told her "Well thats wrong, cus you can't go by feelings." Point taken.
You state, and you are right in saying so, that we cannot continue living in sin, expect God to forgive them, and keep on doing them. "Of course not!" Paul boldly states. He addresses this very thing. A follow of Christ who has Jesus as his personal Savior and Lord who continues in sin is taking advangage of God's grace and pity on humanity.
We see this when Paul says:
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
So as sad as we see it, and sometimes difficult for us to see it, God's love is eternal and there isn't anything we did to have this free gift of Salvation and so there isn't anything we can do for it to be taken away--including taking advange of His grace.
You state a few times that you don't condemn or hate us for being 'gay' but hate us for our 'sin'. Sorry Hannah but being gay and the 'sin' you speak of IS "GAY", so you therefore, if you want to admit it or not--condemn us.
The BIble says that if a man says he loves God yet hates his brother, the love of God is not in him.
I believe that as "Christians" we have got to a point where we believe that standing boldly against homosexuals and their 'agenda' be it "political" or "biblical", we have got to a point where we believing doing so is "defending" our 'traditions' when all the long HOW we act as "Christians" have be doing that all along. You don't believe me do you? WHO are the number one today to file for divorce? Look it up, the answer is: CONSERVATIVES. What are "conservatives/christians" number one to be known for? ANTI GAY.
And when we read about our Jesus what we He mostly known for Honnah?
- "Friend of Sinners"
- "Prince of Peace"
- "Son of Man"
He was in human form, God who came to call the spiritual sick not the spiritual healthy. He came to not condemn but through Him, save it. He didn't come to make the rightious MORE right, but for the poor to become rich in Him, and the lame walk, the deaf hear again, and the homeless shelter. He came so they may have life. It is even recorded in black and white in the book of Matthew that Jesus ate with Levi (Tax Collector), other tax collectors, scums and wicked people of His day. ALl the while when the "righteious" whispered to one another "Why does He eat with such scum and wicked people?!"
You see we are NOT being at all what we are called to be anymore? We have lost what has set us Free...Truth. The Truth that mingled with the outcast. When the poor little rich man came to Jesus and wanted to know how to have this eternal life which Christ spoke of, Jesus said "You lack one thing." And I can only imagine the Rich man's face! Jesus said for him to "sell all your things to the poor and follow me." He went away in his wealth. Jesus didn't run after him pleading and lowering the command. Jesus didn't do what we do today, sugar coat the Gospel that sets man free from the bondage of sin and the chains of death. It was love--clear as day. In the book of Acts the followers of Christ wasn't known by what they wore, or the songs they sang in church... or even their stances Biblically or Politically, but the very fact they SHINED.
I mean, for crying out loud Jesus brought together fishermen, tax collectors, and tent makers... who found a glorious thing in common---Jesus Christ. YET we can't even find common ground on what color the carpet is to be in church, the music style of our worship... let alone how to LOVE one another.
We as "Christians" has fell asleep! ANd Christ is using the Spirit to stir the hearts of His people, to revive His church and recapture the heart beat of what it means to be His.
Tabbatha Asked:
I am not homosexual, but I have no harsh feelings towards men and women who are. I don't think God "hates gays", but I do have a question. I think we're all in agreement on the fact that we should not have premarital sex. Since in most states homosexuals can't get married, how can that be justified. In order not to sin should homosexuals stay virgins for life? I'm not sure where I stand on this. One of my good friends is homosexual, and one of the most Christian men I've ever met. He doesn't judge anybody and he truly lives his life for Christ, but is not a virgin. I find it hard to believe that God would cast him out just for that, but when I think about that it shakes my beliefs in God entirely.
My Response:
Well it depends on a lot of things Tabatha.
- My what means do you define "christian". You noted that your friend is one of the most "Christian men" you have ever met. How are you measuring that?
- Now, I do believe that God is against men or women having sex before they make a commitment to love, share and live two as one. The fact is it depends on how we define "marriage" and by what means does "marriage" between two people become officially knitted together as one soul. In the Word of God a branch of government did not need to endorse or officially state what is or isn't a marriage, as we are doing today. They only needed God as their witness. In some cases when two people lived in the same house for a long period of time, that was considered 'marriage'. You have to ask yourself (as I do) "Do I need a government to say that my love for another person is true and pure, or do I need God's? And if I need only God to define it, why should I worry about being understood or accepted by the world around me?"
- Now each 'christian' gay or straight defer in regards to 'sex before marriage', especially among the GLBT folks. Some "gay Christians" let down their spirituality to please their sexuality--which I think is unbiblical. Spirituality came before sexuality. I believe sex before the ceremony of commitment between two loving adults, who promise to be pure, true and faithful to their last breath, is wrong. I believe personally that sex is the act of weakening oneself in order to be taken over by another--unpassively. As a gay man and with my beliefs past on the Bible, I believe Paul clearly states that "passive" acts by a man to another man is unmanly, and he obviously condemns that act. But the REASON for condemning that isn't because the persons' sexuality but because of his intentions and what was being practice. These men who took the role of a female usually in sexual relations, was a act of worship to the gods and goddesses of sex and pleasure. These men weren't in a loving committed relationship in which we see today. Now some gays may believe that 'well i can't get married, so why wait' but I don't believe that to be the case. Because Biblically speaking we can get married. I don't need a government or church to say what is love and isn't, I have my God to do so. There for I say finally that we should, as GLBT men and women of faith, to not have sex with our lover until we make that public commitment of 'til death do us part".
Ashurina asked:
Guys, very short answers to these. if its a yes/no question say yes or no
1. when the bible says neither fornicators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of heaven, doesn't that say homosexuality is also a sin?
2. If your answer is no, then what does this verse exactly mean? and why is the word 'homosexuals' there?
My Response:
I want to note that given the subject spoken here it is difficult to give a clear black and white answer to this question Ashurina. If that was possible I doubt this post would exist.
1) NO. Reason the term 'homosexual' didn't exist at the time the Word was written.
Secondly, the KJV reads as follows:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 10
The meaning of the word malaokois confuses scholars to this day. But many believe it was referring to “effeminate call boys”. Hence the King James (before the term “homosexual” existed and was used in translations of the modern Bible) translated to be “effeminate”. The Revised Standard Version translated to mean “boy or male prostitutes”. But it is certainly clear that it does not refer to what we today know “homosexual couples” or “homosexuality” to be.
This word often meant also ‘the soft’, a feminine behavior. And Paul most likely was speaking in regards to this.If it was a sexual practice Paul had in mind, then what practice was that? To us, we would conclude it of course was a homosexual one. For the majority of us see stereotypically homosexuals showing signs of feminine behaviors and seeing effeminacy in men. But was this what Paul had in mind when using ‘malaokois’? The link may seem obvious to the reader, but our preoccupations are not those of all ages and all societies. In the Hellenistic world, masculinity was associated among other things with strength and self control, which was much prized and femininity and its associated qualities with it, was not liked much. Softness alone in men, not particularly homosexuals, could be derided and despised in ancient societies and cultures.
If he does have any homosexual in mind, it is ‘feminizing’, or the unfitting act precisely for a man which makes him soft that he is disapproving here. It is a rather a particular vision of what it is to be a man and a concern for ‘masculine’ qualities that he is underlying when using ‘malakoi’. The concern for masculinity also explains why Paul did not bother to include in his list a term to cover female homosexuals. This text, in my convictions, has little to do rather a man is homosexual or not, but everything to do with the male feminizing himself, throwing away masculine qualities in exchange for much more feminized ones.
We have to keep in mind that ACTING in a homosexual manner doesn't necessarily mean one is homosexual by nature, but rather behaved in a way that is homosexual--against his nature function or sexual drive etc. etc.
Again I understand you requested a short response but it is unlikely given the subject you will receive one. If you do tell the entire church and 'homosexual' cus this has been a subject of great pain and division Ashurina s.
